Billionaire vacuum cleaner maker James Dyson will open an electric car factory in Singapore in 2020. The British consumer goods company will invest about $2.7 billion to launch new electric cars.
Dyson has plenty of experience working with batteries, electric motors and sleek luxury designs.
Most new electric car start-ups, including Dyson, Tesla, Apple and Faraday, are focusing entirely on electric vehicles.
Dyson is worth £9.5 billion and has promised at least £2.5bn to the electric car project.
There is a Dyson Technology Limited patent. UK patent application No2548361 titled “Method Of Fabricating An Energy Storage Device”. It claims invention provides a simple, fast and low-cost way of producing a solid-state cell.
Dyson will also try to make an electric plane.
Brian Wang is a Futurist Thought Leader and a popular Science blogger with 1 million readers per month. His blog Nextbigfuture.com is ranked #1 Science News Blog. It covers many disruptive technology and trends including Space, Robotics, Artificial Intelligence, Medicine, Anti-aging Biotechnology, and Nanotechnology.
Known for identifying cutting edge technologies, he is currently a Co-Founder of a startup and fundraiser for high potential early-stage companies. He is the Head of Research for Allocations for deep technology investments and an Angel Investor at Space Angels.
A frequent speaker at corporations, he has been a TEDx speaker, a Singularity University speaker and guest at numerous interviews for radio and podcasts. He is open to public speaking and advising engagements.
Dyson will kick Tesla’s âss!
Dyson will kick Tesla’s âss!
Dyson batteries suck. In all seriousness they are pretty bad. They die quickly and need to be replaced. Fortunately they all have serial numbers so it is easy enough to get them replaced.
Dyson batteries suck.In all seriousness they are pretty bad. They die quickly and need to be replaced. Fortunately they all have serial numbers so it is easy enough to get them replaced.
The truth is a car is a very basic thing. It’s components linked to sensors linked to computer systems. Marketing is more complicated than cars.
Also this story is behind the times. https://electrek.co/2018/10/23/dyson-electric-vehicle-factory-singapore-solid-state-battery/ TLDR: The British company has now announced that it will build the cars in Singapore and those vehicles are unlikely to be equipped with solid-state batteries.
I think you misspelled lick.
Dyson’s cars only work in vaccuum. 😉 Same for planes… Knowing how to make batteries does not mean you know how to make cars. There is no longer such a thing as the simple car. They have many systems, and each system has parts. Perhaps his battery may be used in the cars, but to build lots of vehicles around a battery does not seem profitable.
The truth is a car is a very basic thing. It’s components linked to sensors linked to computer systems. Marketing is more complicated than cars.
Also this story is behind the times.https://electrek.co/2018/10/23/dyson-electric-vehicle-factory-singapore-solid-state-battery/TLDR: The British company has now announced that it will build the cars in Singapore and those vehicles are unlikely to be equipped with solid-state batteries.
I think you misspelled lick.
Dyson’s cars only work in vaccuum. 😉 Same for planes…Knowing how to make batteries does not mean you know how to make cars. There is no longer such a thing as the simple car. They have many systems and each system has parts. Perhaps his battery may be used in the cars but to build lots of vehicles around a battery does not seem profitable.
A tautology ? ‘Most new electric car start-ups, including Dyson, Tesla, Apple and Faraday, are focusing entirely on electric vehicles’
A tautology ? ‘Most new electric car start-ups including Dyson Tesla Apple and Faraday are focusing entirely on electric vehicles’
Dyson better hurry up and built that rocket company too, because he’s a little behind the game
Dyson better hurry up and built that rocket company too because he’s a little behind the game
James Dyson – “Brexit will be good for British manufacturing!” Also James Dyson – “Yeah, I’m not making them here…” Two-faced prick.
James Dyson – Brexit will be good for British manufacturing!””Also James Dyson – “”””Yeah”””” I’m not making them here…””””Two-faced prick.”””
I prefer to keep it simple: electric cars will never be ready for Prime Time until they create a battery pack that powers the car for 500 miles and charges in under 5 minutes. Hi Cap, Solid State, whatever… 500/5 is the only way. Make it guys…
Seems to me that this article is a bit short of the mark: no detail about Dyson’s patent. Hmmm… But the click-bait “solid state battery” got me to thinking. What really is important in a battery (cell) destined to become part of an electric motor vehicle battery pack? Hmmm… The fairly obvious are: • (1) potent • (2) light weight • (3) mechanically durable • (4) electrically resilient • (5) high rate charge, overcharge tolerant • (6) low flammability • (9) containable nastiness • (10) modest cost • (11) scalable without rare materials dependence • (12) recyclable • (13) uninfringing patent-wise • (14) low internal resistance • (15) high charge-discharge efficiency • (16) high retention of charge (low self-discharge) • (17) low charge-discharge cycle degradation № 1 has several faces: potent in joules per gram, packaged; potent in joules per liter; potent in amperage relative to contained charge, potent in volts per cell. Ultimately the ‘potency’ of a cell tech just comes down to five numbers: 1.1 — kWh/kg 1.2 — kWh/l 1.3 — $/kWh 1.4 — lifetime cycles 1.5 — amp/amp-hour The “holy grail” of battery tech would be something like: ⋅⋅⋅ 1.0 kWh/kg ⋅⋅⋅ 3.0 kWh/L (implying 3 kg/L) ⋅⋅⋅ $50 per kWh ⋅⋅⋅ 2,000 cycles until 25% degradation in charge retention ⋅⋅⋅ 5× amp per amp-hour charge amperage rate, charge & discharge Such a battery would allow an automotive battery pack maker to stuff 300 miles (75 kWh) of range into the unit, where the cell tech weighs 75 kg, takes up 25 liters of space, costs $3,750 and will deliver 300 × 2,000 = 600,000 miles of useful battery life. If the battery pack is 400 volts, and the cells are 2 volts, then 200 need to be in series (conceptually). Likewise, the 75 kWh at 400 volts is 75,000 ÷ 400 → 188 amp-hours of “C”. Thus in theory it could charge at 5× that or over 900 amps. Maybe the cell chemsitry is exothermic on discharge, limiting it to 500 amps (say). Well, 500 A × 400 V → 200,000 watts. 200,000 W ÷ 746 W/hp → 2
I prefer to keep it simple: electric cars will never be ready for Prime Time until they create a battery pack that powers the car for 500 miles and charges in under 5 minutes. Hi Cap Solid State whatever… 500/5 is the only way. Make it guys…
Seems to me that this article is a bit short of the mark: no detail about Dyson’s patent. Hmmm…But the click-bait “solid state battery” got me to thinking. What really is important in a battery (cell) destined to become part of an electric motor vehicle battery pack?Hmmm… The fairly obvious are:• (1) potent• (2) light weight• (3) mechanically durable• (4) electrically resilient• (5) high rate charge overcharge tolerant• (6) low flammability• (9) containable nastiness• (10) modest cost• (11) scalable without rare materials dependence• (12) recyclable• (13) uninfringing patent-wise• (14) low internal resistance• (15) high charge-discharge efficiency• (16) high retention of charge (low self-discharge)• (17) low charge-discharge cycle degradation№ 1 has several faces: potent in joules per gram packaged; potent in joules per liter; potent in amperage relative to contained charge potent in volts per cell. Ultimately the ‘potency’ of a cell tech just comes down to five numbers:1.1 — kWh/kg1.2 — kWh/l1.3 — $/kWh 1.4 — lifetime cycles1.5 — amp/amp-hourThe “holy grail” of battery tech would be something like:⋅⋅⋅ 1.0 kWh/kg⋅⋅⋅ 3.0 kWh/L (implying 3 kg/L)⋅⋅⋅ $50 per kWh⋅⋅⋅ 2000 cycles until 25{22800fc54956079738b58e74e4dcd846757aa319aad70fcf90c97a58f3119a12} degradation in charge retention⋅⋅⋅ 5× amp per amp-hour charge amperage rate charge & dischargeSuch a battery would allow an automotive battery pack maker to stuff 300 miles (75 kWh) of range into the unit where the cell tech weighs 75 kg takes up 25 liters of space costs $3750 and will deliver 300 × 2000 = 600000 miles of useful battery life. If the battery pack is 400 volts and the cells are 2 volts then 200 need to be in series (conceptually). Likewise the 75 kWh at 400 volts is 75000 ÷ 400 → 188 amp-hours of C””. Thus in theory it could charge at 5× that or over 900 amps. Maybe the cell chemsitry is exothermic on discharge”” li”
I give you brownie points for a truly well crafted comeback on that one, I admit.
Totally. But the EV Utopians on here get testy when their de-facto ‘secular religion’ on this issue is ever presented with such fully understandable requirements to be met.
I give you brownie points for a truly well crafted comeback on that one I admit.
Totally.But the EV Utopians on here get testy when their de-facto ‘secular religion’ on this issue is ever presented with such fully understandable requirements to be met.
I’d add a requirement of being able to operate effectively over a wide temperature range. By the way, analysts think only $100/kWh is necessary for EVs to surpass ICEVs.
I’d add a requirement of being able to operate effectively over a wide temperature range.By the way analysts think only $100/kWh is necessary for EVs to surpass ICEVs.
That’s nice and maybe for a few necessary but getting batteries to the point where EVs are more affordable and usable than ICEVs is really the goal. Note, usability requires a lot more that simply good battery tech, it implies infrastructure and regulations.
That’s nice and maybe for a few necessary but getting batteries to the point where EVs are more affordable and usable than ICEVs is really the goal. Note usability requires a lot more that simply good battery tech it implies infrastructure and regulations.
electric cars will never be ready for Prime Time until they create a battery pack that powers the car for 500 miles and charges in under 5 minutes” But there isn’t a “ready for prime time” point. There is an acceptance curve, not a point. The point starts at 0, and moves monotonically up as EVs get better, until they approach 100% consumer preference. There is no single point where they go from not-good-enough to better. There is one point where it is good enough for Bob. Another point where it is good enough for Steph. Another 10% improvement and it is good enough for Dave… They may never reach the point of COMPLETELY replacing all ICVs. After all the ICV never completely replaced horses. There are always little niche applications where the peculiar characteristics mean you use a peculiar solution.
Two faced prick, or dealing with the reality imposed on him?
I don’t think the Golden Condition is absolute. Physics… • (1) 0.20 to 0.27 kWh/mile • (2) Max 300 amps per charging connector • (3) Max 500 volts open-air charging Nothing can be done about № 1 because for “regular sized cars” that’s what it takes, motively, to move the things around at freeway speeds; in city it is similar. № 2 has to do with the thickness of WIRE in the charging cable(s), and its weight, and having my rickety Mom or Aunt expecting to pull up to a “filling station” and get a charge. Cables above 300 amps get to be so heavy and stiff that its not vaible. And № 3 has to do with insulation, spark jump-over, and the electrocution risks that come from higher voltages. Put those together: 300 amp × 500 volt → 150,000 watt That’s about the fastest a single-plug charging setup might be able to deliver. Turning that backwards: 150 kW ÷ 60 min → 2.5 kWh/min 2.5 kWh / [ 0.20 to 0.27 kWh/mile ] → 9 to 12 miles/minute 80% of 500 mile range / [ 9 to 12 mi/min ] → 30 to 45 minutes No 5 minute recharging. Period. Or to put it differently… 5 min • [ 9 to 12 mi/min ] → 45 to 60 miles charge Now you COULD have 5 minute battery-pack swapping. But that would require the whole industry to standardize on a small number of battery pack designs. Good luck to that. It isn’t mature enough yet. And that then is the problem. HOWEVER… consistent with my original thought… the Golden Condition isn’t as strenuous as your lay-down. I would offer it is quite compelling for people when: 120 miles in 10 minutes (12 mi/min = 720 “MPH” charging), more if you can wait longer 350 miles total battery pack range Single heavy plug charging At-home overnight nominal charging. These specs get over 95% of all US day-to-day driving covered. You have enough baseline range (300+ miles) with overnight at-home charging that you simply will not be opting for many visits to the SuperCharger stations, normally. Even for a traveling executive or busy sales-person, 30
electric cars will never be ready for Prime Time until they create a battery pack that powers the car for 500 miles and charges in under 5 minutes””But there isn’t a “”””ready for prime time”””” point. There is an acceptance curve”” not a point. The point starts at 0 and moves monotonically up as EVs get better”” until they approach 100{22800fc54956079738b58e74e4dcd846757aa319aad70fcf90c97a58f3119a12} consumer preference. There is no single point where they go from not-good-enough to better. There is one point where it is good enough for Bob. Another point where it is good enough for Steph. Another 10{22800fc54956079738b58e74e4dcd846757aa319aad70fcf90c97a58f3119a12} improvement and it is good enough for Dave…They may never reach the point of COMPLETELY replacing all ICVs. After all the ICV never completely replaced horses. There are always little niche applications where the peculiar characteristics mean you use a peculiar solution.”””
Two faced prick or dealing with the reality imposed on him?
I don’t think the Golden Condition is absolute. Physics…• (1) 0.20 to 0.27 kWh/mile• (2) Max 300 amps per charging connector• (3) Max 500 volts open-air chargingNothing can be done about № 1 because for “regular sized cars” that’s what it takes motively to move the things around at freeway speeds; in city it is similar. № 2 has to do with the thickness of WIRE in the charging cable(s) and its weight and having my rickety Mom or Aunt expecting to pull up to a “filling station” and get a charge. Cables above 300 amps get to be so heavy and stiff that its not vaible. And № 3 has to do with insulation spark jump-over and the electrocution risks that come from higher voltages. Put those together: 300 amp × 500 volt → 150000 wattThat’s about the fastest a single-plug charging setup might be able to deliver. Turning that backwards:150 kW ÷ 60 min → 2.5 kWh/min2.5 kWh / [ 0.20 to 0.27 kWh/mile ] → 9 to 12 miles/minute80{22800fc54956079738b58e74e4dcd846757aa319aad70fcf90c97a58f3119a12} of 500 mile range / [ 9 to 12 mi/min ] → 30 to 45 minutesNo 5 minute recharging. Period. Or to put it differently…5 min • [ 9 to 12 mi/min ] → 45 to 60 miles chargeNow you COULD have 5 minute battery-pack swapping. But that would require the whole industry to standardize on a small number of battery pack designs. Good luck to that. It isn’t mature enough yet. And that then is the problem. HOWEVER… consistent with my original thought… the Golden Condition isn’t as strenuous as your lay-down. I would offer it is quite compelling for people when:120 miles in 10 minutes (12 mi/min = 720 MPH”” charging)”” more if you can wait longer350 miles total battery pack rangeSingle heavy plug chargingAt-home overnight nominal charging.These specs get over 95{22800fc54956079738b58e74e4dcd846757aa319aad70fcf90c97a58f3119a12} of all US day-to-day driving covered. You have enough baseline range (300+ miles) with overnight a”
The CHAdeMO standard already sets a 400KW limit, vs your assumed 150KW limit. 1000V at 400A with a liquid cooled cable. https://insideevs.com/chademo-power-400-kw-surpasses-ccs/ . Furthermore the Oak Ridge National Laboratory is developing a wireless charging standard that also delivers 400KW so you would even need to get out of the car, just pay using your in car tablet display.
The CHAdeMO standard already sets a 400KW limit vs your assumed 150KW limit. 1000V at 400A with a liquid cooled cable. https://insideevs.com/chademo-power-400-kw-surpasses-ccs/ . Furthermore the Oak Ridge National Laboratory is developing a wireless charging standard that also delivers 400KW so you would even need to get out of the car just pay using your in car tablet display.
Nope. No car’s internal electronics is capable of down-converting 1,000 volts at 400 amps to whatever the actual battery requires in charging current. DC-to-DC conversion (even “digital” or “buck” down-conversion), is rarely more than 80% efficient at 100+ amp current flow. So, you have to get rid of 20% of the power as heat. 20% of 400 kW is 80 kW. That there is a lot of heat. And wasted power. More wasted power than an up-to-date Tesla SuperCharge station purports to deliver to your fresh Model S. More importantly, down-converting the 320 kW to 380 volts of a battery pack (say) yields nearly 850 amps. How deep into ohmic heating will that drive the battery pack? Just saying, GoatGuy
Nope.No car’s internal electronics is capable of down-converting 1000 volts at 400 amps to whatever the actual battery requires in charging current. DC-to-DC conversion (even digital”” or “”””buck”””” down-conversion)”” is rarely more than 80{22800fc54956079738b58e74e4dcd846757aa319aad70fcf90c97a58f3119a12} efficient at 100+ amp current flow. So you have to get rid of 20{22800fc54956079738b58e74e4dcd846757aa319aad70fcf90c97a58f3119a12} of the power as heat. 20{22800fc54956079738b58e74e4dcd846757aa319aad70fcf90c97a58f3119a12} of 400 kW is 80 kW. That there is a lot of heat. And wasted power. More wasted power than an up-to-date Tesla SuperCharge station purports to deliver to your fresh Model S.More importantly down-converting the 320 kW to 380 volts of a battery pack (say) yields nearly 850 amps. How deep into ohmic heating will that drive the battery pack?Just saying””GoatGuy”””
It wasn’t imposed on him, he campaigned for it! So I stand by “two-faced prick”.
It wasn’t imposed on him he campaigned for it! So I stand by two-faced prick””.”””
Has anyone considered a flow battery? To charge it you could pump out the electrolytes and replace it probably as fast or faster than filling your tank now. Just thought I would mention it.
Has anyone considered a flow battery? To charge it you could pump out the electrolytes and replace it probably as fast or faster than filling your tank now. Just thought I would mention it.
That’s only if you drive 500 miles most days. It’s like the guy who commutes to work in a Ford F-150 because he occasionally buys firewood and “needs” a truck.
I just want one company to develop an inexpensive, safe solid-state battery that can be mass produced with no worries about material shortages.
Has anyone considered a flow battery? To charge it you could pump out the electrolytes and replace it probably as fast or faster than filling your tank now. Just thought I would mention it.
Has anyone considered a flow battery? To charge it you could pump out the electrolytes and replace it probably as fast or faster than filling your tank now. Just thought I would mention it.
It wasn’t imposed on him, he campaigned for it! So I stand by “two-faced prick”.
It wasn’t imposed on him he campaigned for it! So I stand by two-faced prick””.”””
Has anyone considered a flow battery? To charge it you could pump out the electrolytes and replace it probably as fast or faster than filling your tank now. Just thought I would mention it.
Nope. No car’s internal electronics is capable of down-converting 1,000 volts at 400 amps to whatever the actual battery requires in charging current. DC-to-DC conversion (even “digital” or “buck” down-conversion), is rarely more than 80% efficient at 100+ amp current flow. So, you have to get rid of 20% of the power as heat. 20% of 400 kW is 80 kW. That there is a lot of heat. And wasted power. More wasted power than an up-to-date Tesla SuperCharge station purports to deliver to your fresh Model S. More importantly, down-converting the 320 kW to 380 volts of a battery pack (say) yields nearly 850 amps. How deep into ohmic heating will that drive the battery pack? Just saying, GoatGuy
Nope.No car’s internal electronics is capable of down-converting 1000 volts at 400 amps to whatever the actual battery requires in charging current. DC-to-DC conversion (even digital”” or “”””buck”””” down-conversion)”” is rarely more than 80{22800fc54956079738b58e74e4dcd846757aa319aad70fcf90c97a58f3119a12} efficient at 100+ amp current flow. So you have to get rid of 20{22800fc54956079738b58e74e4dcd846757aa319aad70fcf90c97a58f3119a12} of the power as heat. 20{22800fc54956079738b58e74e4dcd846757aa319aad70fcf90c97a58f3119a12} of 400 kW is 80 kW. That there is a lot of heat. And wasted power. More wasted power than an up-to-date Tesla SuperCharge station purports to deliver to your fresh Model S.More importantly down-converting the 320 kW to 380 volts of a battery pack (say) yields nearly 850 amps. How deep into ohmic heating will that drive the battery pack?Just saying””GoatGuy”””
It wasn’t imposed on him, he campaigned for it! So I stand by “two-faced prick”.
The CHAdeMO standard already sets a 400KW limit, vs your assumed 150KW limit. 1000V at 400A with a liquid cooled cable. https://insideevs.com/chademo-power-400-kw-surpasses-ccs/ . Furthermore the Oak Ridge National Laboratory is developing a wireless charging standard that also delivers 400KW so you would even need to get out of the car, just pay using your in car tablet display.
The CHAdeMO standard already sets a 400KW limit vs your assumed 150KW limit. 1000V at 400A with a liquid cooled cable. https://insideevs.com/chademo-power-400-kw-surpasses-ccs/ . Furthermore the Oak Ridge National Laboratory is developing a wireless charging standard that also delivers 400KW so you would even need to get out of the car just pay using your in car tablet display.
electric cars will never be ready for Prime Time until they create a battery pack that powers the car for 500 miles and charges in under 5 minutes” But there isn’t a “ready for prime time” point. There is an acceptance curve, not a point. The point starts at 0, and moves monotonically up as EVs get better, until they approach 100% consumer preference. There is no single point where they go from not-good-enough to better. There is one point where it is good enough for Bob. Another point where it is good enough for Steph. Another 10% improvement and it is good enough for Dave… They may never reach the point of COMPLETELY replacing all ICVs. After all the ICV never completely replaced horses. There are always little niche applications where the peculiar characteristics mean you use a peculiar solution.
electric cars will never be ready for Prime Time until they create a battery pack that powers the car for 500 miles and charges in under 5 minutes””But there isn’t a “”””ready for prime time”””” point. There is an acceptance curve”” not a point. The point starts at 0 and moves monotonically up as EVs get better”” until they approach 100{22800fc54956079738b58e74e4dcd846757aa319aad70fcf90c97a58f3119a12} consumer preference. There is no single point where they go from not-good-enough to better. There is one point where it is good enough for Bob. Another point where it is good enough for Steph. Another 10{22800fc54956079738b58e74e4dcd846757aa319aad70fcf90c97a58f3119a12} improvement and it is good enough for Dave…They may never reach the point of COMPLETELY replacing all ICVs. After all the ICV never completely replaced horses. There are always little niche applications where the peculiar characteristics mean you use a peculiar solution.”””
Two faced prick, or dealing with the reality imposed on him?
Two faced prick or dealing with the reality imposed on him?
I don’t think the Golden Condition is absolute. Physics… • (1) 0.20 to 0.27 kWh/mile • (2) Max 300 amps per charging connector • (3) Max 500 volts open-air charging Nothing can be done about № 1 because for “regular sized cars” that’s what it takes, motively, to move the things around at freeway speeds; in city it is similar. № 2 has to do with the thickness of WIRE in the charging cable(s), and its weight, and having my rickety Mom or Aunt expecting to pull up to a “filling station” and get a charge. Cables above 300 amps get to be so heavy and stiff that its not vaible. And № 3 has to do with insulation, spark jump-over, and the electrocution risks that come from higher voltages. Put those together: 300 amp × 500 volt → 150,000 watt That’s about the fastest a single-plug charging setup might be able to deliver. Turning that backwards: 150 kW ÷ 60 min → 2.5 kWh/min 2.5 kWh / [ 0.20 to 0.27 kWh/mile ] → 9 to 12 miles/minute 80% of 500 mile range / [ 9 to 12 mi/min ] → 30 to 45 minutes No 5 minute recharging. Period. Or to put it differently… 5 min • [ 9 to 12 mi/min ] → 45 to 60 miles charge Now you COULD have 5 minute battery-pack swapping. But that would require the whole industry to standardize on a small number of battery pack designs. Good luck to that. It isn’t mature enough yet. And that then is the problem. HOWEVER… consistent with my original thought… the Golden Condition isn’t as strenuous as your lay-down. I would offer it is quite compelling for people when: 120 miles in 10 minutes (12 mi/min = 720 “MPH” charging), more if you can wait longer 350 miles total battery pack range Single heavy plug charging At-home overnight nominal charging. These specs get over 95% of all US day-to-day driving covered. You have enough baseline range (300+ miles) with overnight at-home charging that you simply will not be opting for many visits to the SuperCharger stations, normally. Even for a traveling executive or busy sales-person, 30
I don’t think the Golden Condition is absolute. Physics…• (1) 0.20 to 0.27 kWh/mile• (2) Max 300 amps per charging connector• (3) Max 500 volts open-air chargingNothing can be done about № 1 because for “regular sized cars” that’s what it takes motively to move the things around at freeway speeds; in city it is similar. № 2 has to do with the thickness of WIRE in the charging cable(s) and its weight and having my rickety Mom or Aunt expecting to pull up to a “filling station” and get a charge. Cables above 300 amps get to be so heavy and stiff that its not vaible. And № 3 has to do with insulation spark jump-over and the electrocution risks that come from higher voltages. Put those together: 300 amp × 500 volt → 150000 wattThat’s about the fastest a single-plug charging setup might be able to deliver. Turning that backwards:150 kW ÷ 60 min → 2.5 kWh/min2.5 kWh / [ 0.20 to 0.27 kWh/mile ] → 9 to 12 miles/minute80{22800fc54956079738b58e74e4dcd846757aa319aad70fcf90c97a58f3119a12} of 500 mile range / [ 9 to 12 mi/min ] → 30 to 45 minutesNo 5 minute recharging. Period. Or to put it differently…5 min • [ 9 to 12 mi/min ] → 45 to 60 miles chargeNow you COULD have 5 minute battery-pack swapping. But that would require the whole industry to standardize on a small number of battery pack designs. Good luck to that. It isn’t mature enough yet. And that then is the problem. HOWEVER… consistent with my original thought… the Golden Condition isn’t as strenuous as your lay-down. I would offer it is quite compelling for people when:120 miles in 10 minutes (12 mi/min = 720 MPH”” charging)”” more if you can wait longer350 miles total battery pack rangeSingle heavy plug chargingAt-home overnight nominal charging.These specs get over 95{22800fc54956079738b58e74e4dcd846757aa319aad70fcf90c97a58f3119a12} of all US day-to-day driving covered. You have enough baseline range (300+ miles) with overnight a”
That’s nice and maybe for a few necessary but getting batteries to the point where EVs are more affordable and usable than ICEVs is really the goal. Note, usability requires a lot more that simply good battery tech, it implies infrastructure and regulations.
That’s nice and maybe for a few necessary but getting batteries to the point where EVs are more affordable and usable than ICEVs is really the goal. Note usability requires a lot more that simply good battery tech it implies infrastructure and regulations.
I’d add a requirement of being able to operate effectively over a wide temperature range. By the way, analysts think only $100/kWh is necessary for EVs to surpass ICEVs.
I’d add a requirement of being able to operate effectively over a wide temperature range.By the way analysts think only $100/kWh is necessary for EVs to surpass ICEVs.
Nope.
No car’s internal electronics is capable of down-converting 1,000 volts at 400 amps to whatever the actual battery requires in charging current. DC-to-DC conversion (even “digital” or “buck” down-conversion), is rarely more than 80% efficient at 100+ amp current flow.
So, you have to get rid of 20% of the power as heat.
20% of 400 kW is 80 kW. That there is a lot of heat. And wasted power. More wasted power than an up-to-date Tesla SuperCharge station purports to deliver to your fresh Model S.
More importantly, down-converting the 320 kW to 380 volts of a battery pack (say) yields nearly 850 amps. How deep into ohmic heating will that drive the battery pack?
Just saying,
GoatGuy
I give you brownie points for a truly well crafted comeback on that one, I admit.
I give you brownie points for a truly well crafted comeback on that one I admit.
Totally. But the EV Utopians on here get testy when their de-facto ‘secular religion’ on this issue is ever presented with such fully understandable requirements to be met.
Totally.But the EV Utopians on here get testy when their de-facto ‘secular religion’ on this issue is ever presented with such fully understandable requirements to be met.
I prefer to keep it simple: electric cars will never be ready for Prime Time until they create a battery pack that powers the car for 500 miles and charges in under 5 minutes. Hi Cap, Solid State, whatever… 500/5 is the only way. Make it guys…
I prefer to keep it simple: electric cars will never be ready for Prime Time until they create a battery pack that powers the car for 500 miles and charges in under 5 minutes. Hi Cap Solid State whatever… 500/5 is the only way. Make it guys…
Seems to me that this article is a bit short of the mark: no detail about Dyson’s patent. Hmmm… But the click-bait “solid state battery” got me to thinking. What really is important in a battery (cell) destined to become part of an electric motor vehicle battery pack? Hmmm… The fairly obvious are: • (1) potent • (2) light weight • (3) mechanically durable • (4) electrically resilient • (5) high rate charge, overcharge tolerant • (6) low flammability • (9) containable nastiness • (10) modest cost • (11) scalable without rare materials dependence • (12) recyclable • (13) uninfringing patent-wise • (14) low internal resistance • (15) high charge-discharge efficiency • (16) high retention of charge (low self-discharge) • (17) low charge-discharge cycle degradation № 1 has several faces: potent in joules per gram, packaged; potent in joules per liter; potent in amperage relative to contained charge, potent in volts per cell. Ultimately the ‘potency’ of a cell tech just comes down to five numbers: 1.1 — kWh/kg 1.2 — kWh/l 1.3 — $/kWh 1.4 — lifetime cycles 1.5 — amp/amp-hour The “holy grail” of battery tech would be something like: ⋅⋅⋅ 1.0 kWh/kg ⋅⋅⋅ 3.0 kWh/L (implying 3 kg/L) ⋅⋅⋅ $50 per kWh ⋅⋅⋅ 2,000 cycles until 25% degradation in charge retention ⋅⋅⋅ 5× amp per amp-hour charge amperage rate, charge & discharge Such a battery would allow an automotive battery pack maker to stuff 300 miles (75 kWh) of range into the unit, where the cell tech weighs 75 kg, takes up 25 liters of space, costs $3,750 and will deliver 300 × 2,000 = 600,000 miles of useful battery life. If the battery pack is 400 volts, and the cells are 2 volts, then 200 need to be in series (conceptually). Likewise, the 75 kWh at 400 volts is 75,000 ÷ 400 → 188 amp-hours of “C”. Thus in theory it could charge at 5× that or over 900 amps. Maybe the cell chemsitry is exothermic on discharge, limiting it to 500 amps (say). Well, 500 A × 400 V → 200,000 watts. 200,000 W ÷ 746 W/hp → 2
Seems to me that this article is a bit short of the mark: no detail about Dyson’s patent. Hmmm…But the click-bait “solid state battery” got me to thinking. What really is important in a battery (cell) destined to become part of an electric motor vehicle battery pack?Hmmm… The fairly obvious are:• (1) potent• (2) light weight• (3) mechanically durable• (4) electrically resilient• (5) high rate charge overcharge tolerant• (6) low flammability• (9) containable nastiness• (10) modest cost• (11) scalable without rare materials dependence• (12) recyclable• (13) uninfringing patent-wise• (14) low internal resistance• (15) high charge-discharge efficiency• (16) high retention of charge (low self-discharge)• (17) low charge-discharge cycle degradation№ 1 has several faces: potent in joules per gram packaged; potent in joules per liter; potent in amperage relative to contained charge potent in volts per cell. Ultimately the ‘potency’ of a cell tech just comes down to five numbers:1.1 — kWh/kg1.2 — kWh/l1.3 — $/kWh 1.4 — lifetime cycles1.5 — amp/amp-hourThe “holy grail” of battery tech would be something like:⋅⋅⋅ 1.0 kWh/kg⋅⋅⋅ 3.0 kWh/L (implying 3 kg/L)⋅⋅⋅ $50 per kWh⋅⋅⋅ 2000 cycles until 25{22800fc54956079738b58e74e4dcd846757aa319aad70fcf90c97a58f3119a12} degradation in charge retention⋅⋅⋅ 5× amp per amp-hour charge amperage rate charge & dischargeSuch a battery would allow an automotive battery pack maker to stuff 300 miles (75 kWh) of range into the unit where the cell tech weighs 75 kg takes up 25 liters of space costs $3750 and will deliver 300 × 2000 = 600000 miles of useful battery life. If the battery pack is 400 volts and the cells are 2 volts then 200 need to be in series (conceptually). Likewise the 75 kWh at 400 volts is 75000 ÷ 400 → 188 amp-hours of C””. Thus in theory it could charge at 5× that or over 900 amps. Maybe the cell chemsitry is exothermic on discharge”” li”
The CHAdeMO standard already sets a 400KW limit, vs your assumed 150KW limit. 1000V at 400A with a liquid cooled cable. https://insideevs.com/chademo-power-400-kw-surpasses-ccs/ . Furthermore the Oak Ridge National Laboratory is developing a wireless charging standard that also delivers 400KW so you would even need to get out of the car, just pay using your in car tablet display.
James Dyson – “Brexit will be good for British manufacturing!” Also James Dyson – “Yeah, I’m not making them here…” Two-faced prick.
James Dyson – Brexit will be good for British manufacturing!””Also James Dyson – “”””Yeah”””” I’m not making them here…””””Two-faced prick.”””
Dyson better hurry up and built that rocket company too, because he’s a little behind the game
Dyson better hurry up and built that rocket company too because he’s a little behind the game
“electric cars will never be ready for Prime Time until they create a battery pack that powers the car for 500 miles and charges in under 5 minutes”
But there isn’t a “ready for prime time” point. There is an acceptance curve, not a point.
The point starts at 0, and moves monotonically up as EVs get better, until they approach 100% consumer preference. There is no single point where they go from not-good-enough to better. There is one point where it is good enough for Bob. Another point where it is good enough for Steph. Another 10% improvement and it is good enough for Dave…
They may never reach the point of COMPLETELY replacing all ICVs. After all the ICV never completely replaced horses. There are always little niche applications where the peculiar characteristics mean you use a peculiar solution.
Two faced prick, or dealing with the reality imposed on him?
I don’t think the Golden Condition is absolute. Physics…
• (1) 0.20 to 0.27 kWh/mile
• (2) Max 300 amps per charging connector
• (3) Max 500 volts open-air charging
Nothing can be done about № 1 because for “regular sized cars” that’s what it takes, motively, to move the things around at freeway speeds; in city it is similar. № 2 has to do with the thickness of WIRE in the charging cable(s), and its weight, and having my rickety Mom or Aunt expecting to pull up to a “filling station” and get a charge. Cables above 300 amps get to be so heavy and stiff that its not vaible. And № 3 has to do with insulation, spark jump-over, and the electrocution risks that come from higher voltages.
Put those together: 300 amp × 500 volt → 150,000 watt
That’s about the fastest a single-plug charging setup might be able to deliver. Turning that backwards:
150 kW ÷ 60 min → 2.5 kWh/min
2.5 kWh / [ 0.20 to 0.27 kWh/mile ] → 9 to 12 miles/minute
80% of 500 mile range / [ 9 to 12 mi/min ] → 30 to 45 minutes
No 5 minute recharging. Period.
Or to put it differently…
5 min • [ 9 to 12 mi/min ] → 45 to 60 miles charge
Now you COULD have 5 minute battery-pack swapping. But that would require the whole industry to standardize on a small number of battery pack designs. Good luck to that. It isn’t mature enough yet.
And that then is the problem.
HOWEVER… consistent with my original thought… the Golden Condition isn’t as strenuous as your lay-down. I would offer it is quite compelling for people when:
120 miles in 10 minutes (12 mi/min = 720 “MPH” charging), more if you can wait longer
350 miles total battery pack range
Single heavy plug charging
At-home overnight nominal charging.
These specs get over 95% of all US day-to-day driving covered. You have enough baseline range (300+ miles) with overnight at-home charging that you simply will not be opting for many visits to the SuperCharger stations, normally. Even for a traveling executive or busy sales-person, 300+ miles a day is a LOT of road time. Moreover, if you are one of those people — like I was — who has to make a LOT of 300 mile road trips (SF to LA, for example), having enough juice to basically make the trip all in one go, then get a whole fill-up “down there” or “back here” is easy.
Moreover, once in LA, even a short supercharge … 100 miles worth … is more than enough to get you around LA for most of your day travel. In-parking-lot charging covers a lot of range-anxiety woes.
Just saying,
GoatGuy
A tautology ? ‘Most new electric car start-ups, including Dyson, Tesla, Apple and Faraday, are focusing entirely on electric vehicles’
A tautology ? ‘Most new electric car start-ups including Dyson Tesla Apple and Faraday are focusing entirely on electric vehicles’
That’s nice and maybe for a few necessary but getting batteries to the point where EVs are more affordable and usable than ICEVs is really the goal. Note, usability requires a lot more that simply good battery tech, it implies infrastructure and regulations.
I’d add a requirement of being able to operate effectively over a wide temperature range.
By the way, analysts think only $100/kWh is necessary for EVs to surpass ICEVs.
I give you brownie points for a truly well crafted comeback on that one, I admit.
Totally.
But the EV Utopians on here get testy when their de-facto ‘secular religion’ on this issue is ever presented with such fully understandable requirements to be met.
I prefer to keep it simple: electric cars will never be ready for Prime Time until they create a battery pack that powers the car for 500 miles and charges in under 5 minutes. Hi Cap, Solid State, whatever… 500/5 is the only way. Make it guys…
Seems to me that this article is a bit short of the mark: no detail about Dyson’s patent. Hmmm…
But the click-bait “solid state battery” got me to thinking. What really is important in a battery (cell) destined to become part of an electric motor vehicle battery pack?
Hmmm…
The fairly obvious are:
• (1) potent
• (2) light weight
• (3) mechanically durable
• (4) electrically resilient
• (5) high rate charge, overcharge tolerant
• (6) low flammability
• (9) containable nastiness
• (10) modest cost
• (11) scalable without rare materials dependence
• (12) recyclable
• (13) uninfringing patent-wise
• (14) low internal resistance
• (15) high charge-discharge efficiency
• (16) high retention of charge (low self-discharge)
• (17) low charge-discharge cycle degradation
№ 1 has several faces: potent in joules per gram, packaged; potent in joules per liter; potent in amperage relative to contained charge, potent in volts per cell. Ultimately the ‘potency’ of a cell tech just comes down to five numbers:
1.1 — kWh/kg
1.2 — kWh/l
1.3 — $/kWh
1.4 — lifetime cycles
1.5 — amp/amp-hour
The “holy grail” of battery tech would be something like:
⋅⋅⋅ 1.0 kWh/kg
⋅⋅⋅ 3.0 kWh/L (implying 3 kg/L)
⋅⋅⋅ $50 per kWh
⋅⋅⋅ 2,000 cycles until 25% degradation in charge retention
⋅⋅⋅ 5× amp per amp-hour charge amperage rate, charge & discharge
Such a battery would allow an automotive battery pack maker to stuff 300 miles (75 kWh) of range into the unit, where the cell tech weighs 75 kg, takes up 25 liters of space, costs $3,750 and will deliver 300 × 2,000 = 600,000 miles of useful battery life. If the battery pack is 400 volts, and the cells are 2 volts, then 200 need to be in series (conceptually). Likewise, the 75 kWh at 400 volts is 75,000 ÷ 400 → 188 amp-hours of “C”. Thus in theory it could charge at 5× that or over 900 amps. Maybe the cell chemsitry is exothermic on discharge, limiting it to 500 amps (say).
Well, 500 A × 400 V → 200,000 watts.
200,000 W ÷ 746 W/hp → 270 horsepower.
That’s a pretty decent power rating for a car’s motive plant.
Just saying,
GoatGuy
James Dyson – “Brexit will be good for British manufacturing!”
Also James Dyson – “Yeah, I’m not making them here…”
Two-faced prick.
Dyson better hurry up and built that rocket company too, because he’s a little behind the game
The truth is a car is a very basic thing. It’s components linked to sensors linked to computer systems. Marketing is more complicated than cars.
The truth is a car is a very basic thing. It’s components linked to sensors linked to computer systems. Marketing is more complicated than cars.
Also this story is behind the times. https://electrek.co/2018/10/23/dyson-electric-vehicle-factory-singapore-solid-state-battery/ TLDR: The British company has now announced that it will build the cars in Singapore and those vehicles are unlikely to be equipped with solid-state batteries.
Also this story is behind the times.https://electrek.co/2018/10/23/dyson-electric-vehicle-factory-singapore-solid-state-battery/TLDR: The British company has now announced that it will build the cars in Singapore and those vehicles are unlikely to be equipped with solid-state batteries.
I think you misspelled lick.
I think you misspelled lick.
Dyson’s cars only work in vaccuum. 😉 Same for planes… Knowing how to make batteries does not mean you know how to make cars. There is no longer such a thing as the simple car. They have many systems, and each system has parts. Perhaps his battery may be used in the cars, but to build lots of vehicles around a battery does not seem profitable.
Dyson’s cars only work in vaccuum. 😉 Same for planes…Knowing how to make batteries does not mean you know how to make cars. There is no longer such a thing as the simple car. They have many systems and each system has parts. Perhaps his battery may be used in the cars but to build lots of vehicles around a battery does not seem profitable.
Dyson batteries suck. In all seriousness they are pretty bad. They die quickly and need to be replaced. Fortunately they all have serial numbers so it is easy enough to get them replaced.
Dyson batteries suck.In all seriousness they are pretty bad. They die quickly and need to be replaced. Fortunately they all have serial numbers so it is easy enough to get them replaced.
Dyson will kick Tesla’s âss!
Dyson will kick Tesla’s âss!
A tautology ? ‘Most new electric car start-ups, including Dyson, Tesla, Apple and Faraday, are focusing entirely on electric vehicles’
The truth is a car is a very basic thing. It’s components linked to sensors linked to computer systems.
Marketing is more complicated than cars.
Also this story is behind the times.
https://electrek.co/2018/10/23/dyson-electric-vehicle-factory-singapore-solid-state-battery/
TLDR: The British company has now announced that it will build the cars in Singapore and those vehicles are unlikely to be equipped with solid-state batteries.
I think you misspelled lick.
Dyson’s cars only work in vaccuum. 😉 Same for planes…
Knowing how to make batteries does not mean you know how to make cars. There is no longer such a thing as the simple car. They have many systems, and each system has parts. Perhaps his battery may be used in the cars, but to build lots of vehicles around a battery does not seem profitable.
Dyson batteries suck.
In all seriousness they are pretty bad. They die quickly and need to be replaced. Fortunately they all have serial numbers so it is easy enough to get them replaced.
Dyson will kick Tesla’s âss!