Poland is looking to send a dozen Leopard 2 tanks. However, Germany must approve the transfer. The Leopard 2 is a German-made tank and Berlin holds the export license. Germany’s reluctance has delayed Poland, Spain, Finland, The Netherlands from donating surplus Leopard 2s to the Ukraine. The German defense minister has resigned and it seems Germany will stop blocking Leopoard 2 tanks from going to Ukraine.
The Leopard 2 was first built in 1979. The Challenger 2 debuted in U.K. service in 1998.
The 69-ton Leopard 2 has a 120-millimeter smoothbore gun and is similar to the USA M1 tank. The 71-ton Challenger 2 has a 120-millimeter rifled gun. Challenger has more armor protection and long-range firepower but is a bit slower. The Leopard 2 has a max speed of 43 miles per hour on road. The Challenger 2’s top road speed is just 37 miles per hour.
Poland alone has an extra 250 Leopard 2 in storage. The UK has an extra 250 Challenger tanks.
The United States has thousands of older M-1s tanks in storage.
Russia Preparing for a Long War
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If germany is finally over it’s reluctance, then how the swap games roll out will get interesting. Poland is on a buying spree, having ordered K2 (Leopard derivative) recently. One of the rumor mills is Poland wants M-1’s as compensation for offloading a bunch of lesser spec Leo2’s. There is also noises that the germans won’t authorize any transfer unless the US gives M-1’s directly to ukraine, despite the logistic issues that make it somewhat undesirable from an immediate assistance perspective. Then there was the whole fiasco over huge piles of spanish Leo1’s that have been rotting away that they were entirely willing to give away to ukraine in exchange for M-1’s as well, but Rheinmetall was crying over how long it would take to refurb them. There are Rheinmetall direct stored Leo2 stocks available, also german army bundeswehr Leo2 stocks, plus Leo2’s in private storage in I think either Belgium or the Netherlands.
Too bad there isn’t both a large stockpile of Boxer drive units (wheeled and tracked), and Boxer modules (SHORADS, Nexter 120mm automortars, the tank gunned MGS module, and the new 155mm artillery module), as that would improve adaptability and logistics as the ukrainian army transitions to a fully EU/NATO compatible force.
There are counties that have M60A3. It has been update. They will get the job done.
All I can say is it takes a LONG TIME to become a competent tanker. Sending a bunch of hodgepodge could be more detrimental than good.
The M1 tank is an albatross. No military wants it. Congress made a political decision to produce the tank with an unserviceable jet engine that uses twice as much fuel and requires special aviation fuel that complicates logistics. USArmy and Marines retired the M1 in favor of the Bradley and the Stryker. Every year Congress buys more useless M1 tanks because they are manufactured in swing state Ohio.
M1 is the world’s premier tank, but we’d like to see the Europeans at least make an effort to stand on their own,so the Leopard would be best for Ukraine.
Unfortunately we have the German people standing in the way, their love of authoritarian ,genocidal regimes.
Ouch.
Nah. The Germans still have bad memories of their tanks blown on Soviet soil, in the 40s, a territory which includes modern Ukraine. Russian patriotic zeal will only go higher once they see those black crosses.
Nobody wants it?
https://twitter.com/DefenceU/status/1613599573955444751?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1613599573955444751%7Ctwgr%5E85bbc74058af5edd02959777b6c720300c17bfff%7Ctwcon%5Es1_c10&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fd-28313642824268116524.ampproject.net%2F2301031703000%2Fframe.html
M1 uses an engine that can use a multitude of fuel types.
What are you talking about, the M1 is a 60 ton main battle tank and the Stryker is an armored personnel carrier, it’s like comparing a row boat to a yacht. The US Army deployed 1,526 M1 tanks during desert storm, Only 23 M1 tanks were counted as combat casualties, of which 14 were damaged and 9 were destroyed. That. Sounds like it can hold its own in battle.
Antitank missiles in development have a 5km range. Such missiles are mounted on Bradley and Stryker. Tank guns have a 4km range at best. The missiles arrive on top of the tank where it has no armor. One meter of armor on the front of a tank is pointless.
Russia has about 10k tanks in storage. Perhaps only 10% of them can run directly to battlefield. But in medium and long term, they can be fixed and upgraded so more than 90% of them can fight. If Russia lose 100 tank per month (which i doubt, most tanks russia lost happened in early phase of this war), it has about 8 years ahead with its storage. And within 8 years, it can easily mass produce thousands of t-14 tanks. Ukr only has chance to win if NATO decide to go all-in but that will not happen.
Russia is losing approximately 5 tanks per day or 150 tanks per month at the current rate of attrition. Modern anti tank weapons outclass tanks.
How do you know that modern anti tank weapons outclass Western tanks?
Theres Leopard 2s and theres Leopard 2s. The Kurds hammered the last Turkish invasion with anti-tank rockets. This was dismissed that the Turkish Leopard 2 was an older version, but this is probably what the Ukrainians will be getting. Its better than nothing for sure, but is probably still inferior to a T-72.
The Turks had no idea of how to use tanks, Russian tanks are far inferior to even the old German tanks,Russian tanks kill everyone when hit, while in a Western tank you mostly survive.
But how much of a difference will 300 tanks make? Even if Ukraine would win all tank battles, could it actually have a meaningful impact on the war?
It will make more difference than 0 tanks 🙂 And, cutting through any propaganda, the Russians really do seem to be at the point of throwing cheap infantry at the front line because that really is all they’ve got left.
I would like Ukraine to win the war and to throw out the russians from ALL of Ukrains, including the eastern regions. To do that Ukraine needs to defeat the russian army. So my question is if you can do anything meaningful with the 300 tanks if they do not have a corresponding infantry and artillery to back it up? So how should the western powers back up Ukraine so that they win, not just prolong the war.
The West has been supplying Ukraine with a lot of infantry and artillery equipment. And not just that- but intel on where to hit things
Reports I’ve read makes it sound like the UKR is using tanks as mobile artillery and infantry support, rather than massed armored formations. In this case, it will be very helpful to them, as the tanks are designed for cross country movement, more so than towed artillery. This is important, as the Russian forces have been reported as defending the roads and letting the UKR forces out flank their positions cross country. Being able to have your big gun travel with you for immediate support makes the UKR forces more nimble.
I also speculate that Russian conscripts, convicts and mercenary infantry will be less than happy to stand and defend the glory of the Rodina if they think there are tanks about to attack them.
What a silly war.
I feel like I am watching little league.
Either NATO Go All In and flood the country with all manner of weapons and push Russia out in a few weeks, take over Crimea/ make Sevastopol a NATO base/port and have done with it…
-or-
Russia tactical nuke the Ukranians, genocide the eastern cities, Russify the whole country, and solidify the new Warsaw Pact 2000s.
Just stop using 40 year old tech, backward eastern bloc WW2 strategies, and undisciplined gaggles of half-drunk/malnourished convicts and conscripts.
Geeez.
Yeah, man up Russia and do something really stupid with your tactical nukes. Oh, wait, they are – by sending untrained farm folk and convicts at the Ukrainians.
Granted, not with the tactical nukes.
I’m kinda with you.
But as an American, I want us to not be involved at all. We shouldn’t of given them a single dollar or a single bullet. It’s not our fight, let weak Europe fight their own battles.
It’s hard for us to look at this war and not be annoyed & laugh at the same time. We would just fly in with stealth fighters & bombers, and own the sky in under a week. Once you control the sky, you decimate Russia’s ground forces.
Of course I was being cartoonishly evil and there are certainly realities of provoking Russia to simply say “…if we can’t have Russia be recognized as a Top World State [whether they can show any statistics to support that or not] then we will simply lay waste to All…” which I truly believe that they are desparate, damaged, and dysfunctional enough to undertake. Right? There’s refusing to deal with/ accept terrorists and then there’s provoking and antagonizing them.
As much as I believe that the US has no obligation to be a team player, world’s policeman, role model, or nanny, Europe has the potential to be a good customer, a good technology and research partner, a good place to vacation, etc., though it has certainly made serious mistakes in political judgement. One can only hope that with the recent (and ongoing) gesture of good will and support that such a place will realize the realities of the neighbors they are co-existing with. The mid- to late-2020s will be a very different world.