Renders of New SpaceX Hot Staging Starship Vents by Tony S @TDSN19

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Tony S and other in the Ringwatchers Discord have three new possibilities for vents for the hot staging of SpaceX Starship. Hot Stage renders by TDSN (Toney S) (@TDSN19).

Elon Musk described continuous thrust of several booster engines while the upper stage Starship separates and also engages its engines. This change could enable a 10% increase in payload to orbit. This would be like increasing Starship Super Heavy payload by the entire payload of a Falcon 9.

This could mean reusable payload with Raptor 3 engines of 200 tons and expendable rocket payload of 330 tons.

14 thoughts on “Renders of New SpaceX Hot Staging Starship Vents by Tony S @TDSN19”

  1. Whichever direction you take it seems clear either the booster or the first stage will be going back to the production site for the addition of a special ring segment. My pick is the booster. The ring will need a protective dome, cutouts and reinforced diversion dividers. I’m watching for the booster’s return trip knowing they made a decision on the design but maybe we’ll see hints before hand by observing the goings on at the production site

  2. So, these renders are all totally speculative, based off of a few words by Musk?

    OK. Speculating away, from an engineering rather than graphics perspective:

    The exhaust from the Starship’s engines is hot. Really hot. Almost cutting torch hot. It also is capable of building high pressure if anything gets in its way.

    Once you cut slots in a thin cylinder, it loses all strength, and the displayed configurations are only ideal from a “how can we make sure the top of the booster ends up damaged?” perspective. Seriously, they almost optimize that goal.

    The new extension has to meet several criteria:

    1) It has to be mostly empty space, to impede the exhaust as little as possible. Also to prevent the accumulation of explosive fuel mixtures prior to ignition.
    2) It has to be very light weight.
    3) It has to be highly rigid.
    4) It has to be such that the exhaust will not immediately damage it.
    5) It has to offer the exposed end of the booster at least some protection.

    The easiest way to meet all these criteria is just a triangulated pipe frame, possibly with a conoidal cover over the existing end of the booster to prevent the exhaust from entering the open end of the booster and destroying important stuff. Possibly it will incorporate “crickets”, (A roofing term) aligned with each of the grid fins to prevent them from being hit with the exhaust.

    • The exhaust is only hot if you slow it down (stagnation temp.). Keep it supersonic, and it’s not particularly hot at all, that’s why nozzles are only cooled part-way down after the throat rather than to the exit proper. Designing the interstage fairing like an extension of the nozzle array would allow you to start the engines, throttle all the way up, and separate, before conduction gets the heat to the interstage allowing you to keep it stainless.

      • On test launch in April, Starship and Superheavy, with ~170s of flight time, achieved ~600m/s from ~75% fuel consumption (90% payload, 10% re-entry) being regular separation time at an altitude of ~30-35km. At this altitude air temperature is -50 to -30°C (day/night, latitude, seasons), di-oxygen gas has reduced share on air mixture (~21% sea level, ~7-1.5% (air, abs. 1.5-0.3%) compared to sea level oxygen content at ~20-30km) and ozone is between ~top concentration and starting having reduced share in air composition (depending on latitude)

    • Here is an idea.

      A top mount petal section that forms a cone surrounded by supports.

      They retract, and the cone opens up into petals and those are de facto fins.

      That may weigh less than keeping grid fins AND shielding the bulkhead—do a two-fer.

      There are new actuators that might help:
      https://techxplore.com/news/2023-06-fusion-hybrid-linear-actuator-concept.html

      So the same tech is used for steering.

      Also–have the flank of SuperHeavy have the very same type of waist-mount thrusters Lunar Starship has—but pointed upwards at a slant.

      Thoughts?

  3. anyway I see two improvements here, why sold as one?

    1 keeping some 2-4 booster engines running till near-all fuel is consumed (the last fuel drop is impossible to define when 32 are running at full throttle)
    2 starting the second stage engines before the stage separation. (a long time russian method)

    Both ideas together they might lead to +10% load

    • It would be very interesting getting temperature sensor data on flights from top of SH Booster, aka 1st stage, (and with atmospheric re-entry) on Mach 2-3(-?)?
      Estimation would be somewhere ~750K (~895°F, ~480°C) hull temperatures on leading areas/edges for Mach 2.85 (SR71) (~970m/s, ~2190mi/h, ~3500km/h)?
      Planed separation events could create an slight angle (if necessary at all with achieved distances within some seconds, but low density air atmosphere at high altitude) for Starship Raptors thrust(?)

  5. Getting strong Korolev N1 vibes. Next iteration: make it a 3 stage rocket. 😁

    Whatever works, but I think it’s funny how it’s taking some ideas.

    • “it looks like an explosion waiting to happen”

      That’s basically the description of every rocket.

      • The rendered designs are much more of an explosion waiting to happen, than your average rocket. IMO, they’re impractical.

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